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One More Tab
What do a saturation diver, a political scandal, and a man who's never slept more than two hours have in common? Nothing, except that Avi, Saijal, and Anchita went down all three rabbit holes anyway. One More Tab is a weekly dive into whatever's open in their browser, unhinged tangents included.
One More Tab
Ep 2. The Art Of Communication
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No numbers. No writing. No words at all, sometimes. This episode, Avi, Saijal, and Anchita explore three wildly different ways humans have recorded and communicated meaning: the Pirahã language, the melodies of Jingrwai Lawbei, and the knotted cords of Khipu. Turns out words on a page are just one small piece of the story.
Check out all of our other episodes here: onemoretabpod.com
Episode research references: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DF46oE2dKqcWYp9hhO7syDvosmyvGgR3uRC41mvNiI8/edit?usp=sharing
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Intro
SPEAKER_00What do a saturation diver, the indigenous paraja language, and someone who's never slept more than two hours straight have in common? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except that we went down all three rabbit holes just for you.
SPEAKER_04I'm Abby, I'm Sachel, I'm Majdu, and this is one more tab. We've got a never-ending list of I think we need to look into that. Over 40 browser tabs. That's us every week, chasing the whys, the wait, what?
SPEAKER_02And the unhinged tangents that come with them. Morning. One more tab is not for everyone. Do not listen while trying to focus, sleep, or maintain a normal conversation. Side effects include excessive teleporting, oversharing facts, nobody asks for, and a sudden urgent little thing.
SPEAKER_05Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast. One more tab. I cannot lie. I think this is literally the fifth time I have said this intro. The three of us have just been in like some weird, delirious energy. And every time that we've tried recording this today, something or the other happens, and we've had to like run it back again. But hopefully, fifth, six times the charm.
SPEAKER_00This will be the one. This will be the one.
SPEAKER_05I feel good about this. Um, but yeah, at least at the time that we're recording this, it's a beautiful sunny day, which for those of you that live in Canada, specifically Ontario, we have been dying for this. This has felt like the longest winter. Yeah, and even like I actually enjoy winter, but I was getting so sick of this shit. So I'm very glad we're seeing sunlight and it's not just gloom and doom. And on top of that, it's also the long weekend. It's a Victoria Day weekend. And I don't know about anyone else. Actually, I'm pretty sure I might be in the minority for this. I didn't actually know what Victoria Day is. And yeah, I've gone 26 years of my life not knowing until minutes before we started our first attempt of recording this of this intro. Um, but yeah, it is Victoria Day weekend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's a little ironic given the topic that we're gonna be covering today, but I will leave that for later. Um but yeah, I guess we are celebrating the quote unquote great monarch.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh barely so, but we're enjoying the long weekend. Questionably great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I guess we're just enjoying the the long weekend aspect of it.
SPEAKER_00But uh, what are you guys drinking today?
SPEAKER_05Okay, I can get get it started. Um, Avi and I actually are both drinking the same thing. I in fact did copy her. We're having a Yuzu mint tea iced, and shout out to our friends that got this for us as a souvenir from Singapore, and it's honestly really, really good.
SPEAKER_01It was iced once upon a time, but since we've recorded this like five times, the ice has melted.
SPEAKER_05It's a diluted yuzu tea now. It might be like a lukewarm diluted Yuzu mint tea.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then for me, I have just a very classic Diet Cola with a slice of lemon. Uh yeah, it's very crispy. It's a perfect way to kick off summer, in my opinion. But yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the reason why I heard this is actually still cold is because it's in a thermos, and we did not have the foresight to do that to ours. But yeah. Anyhow, Abby, I know I kind of stole your thunder with our beverage. Any other notes you want to add to this?
SPEAKER_00No, I think you covered it perfectly.
SPEAKER_05I love how we describe these drinks as though it's like Michelin star, yeah, revolutionary thing that we're doing here.
SPEAKER_01But okay, so let's kick off the episode. What we're gonna be covering today is the art of communication. And so, yeah, each of us have a separate topic, a separate type of communication that we've um studied. And yeah, as I said earlier, a little ironic that we're filming, not filming, recording this uh on Victoria Day, because unfortunately, over the course of history, a lot of uh different types of communication that were uh used by different ethnic groups have been victims of colonization. So yeah, those are gonna be some interesting topics that we're gonna get into. And yeah, I think we're ready to start. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think you should take it away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I can start. When we first decided on this theme, I was instantly drawn to the idea of unsolved or undecipherable decipherable languages. Um, so yeah, languages that have been either lost in translation or languages that were uncovered long after the uh speakers of the of the that language had already uh passed. And so I did some research and there was quite a few languages that came up. You know, there's the Indus Valley script, linear A, Rongo Rongo, and a bunch of others that honestly I'm really I really would love to cover in other uh podcast episodes because all of them had some really fascinating stories. Um, but what I decided to go with and what I'm gonna cover today is actually the Keepu.
Khipu
SPEAKER_01Imagine a language or a communication system that made it possible to transmit messages over 40,000 kilometers worth of roads in less than a week.
SPEAKER_03What?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and 40,000 kilometers is roughly the circumference of the earth. So this communication system is allowing us to transmit information um across that distance of roads within like four to five days. And what makes it even more interesting is that this communication system has had no words or text, but was used for many complex record keeping tasks, including accounting, taxation, and storytelling. Oh wow. Yeah, so obviously I'm talking about kip's, which was a complex communication system that was used by the Inca Empire and other Andean cultures. And it was formed from knotted and colored chords or strings. Yeah. Uh the word kipu comes from the uh Quechua? I hope I'm pronouncing. Um I did look up the pronunciations of these different uh the different words that I'm gonna be using. Um, but you know, forgive me if I pronounce them incorrectly still. Uh I'm trying. But yeah, the word kipu comes from the Quechua word, um, not. So simply the word kipu just means not. And the Quechua people are actually a diverse group of indigenous populations in South America who are direct descendants of ancient Andean civilizations like the Inca Empire. Uh and yeah, so a kipu is simply a collection of chords. The way it works is that there is a primary cord, which is usually like horizontally across, and um, from that primary cord there are pendant chords hanging, which then can also branch out into further chords and on and on, and those can be several levels deep. And these chords have knots on them. And so there's several different attributes of kipus that can be used to communicate information. So the first is the knot type. So obviously there are many different types of distinct knots that can be formed on these uh chords, and each of them has a unique meaning. Uh the second is a knot position, so depending on where on the chord the knot is, that also conveys some sort of meaning. Then it's then there's a number of knots, so that encodes, often encodes numerical values. Uh then we have the color, so they could they could have solid colors, they could have multicolored, twisted strands, um, all of those things also signify uh different meanings. And then we also have chord ply direction. So ply is like that twist that you often see, like if you're looking at like cotton threads or like any type of like cords or yarn. Uh sometimes they'll have like a twist between two different fibers. And so the direction of those twists can also imply meaning. So clockwise or counterclockwise. Uh we then have the cord attachment style, which is how the pendant attaches to the primary cord, and then cord spacing, which is the relative distance between the actual pendants that are um branching out from the main chord. So obviously, this is very complex and it actually allows for um like this multidimensional form of record keeping. Uh, because obviously it's using physical space, the texture, the structure, uh, and because of all these variables, it actually becomes more like a database than a page of text. Interesting. Yeah. Wait, so how long were these again? So they can range, uh like they're different sizes, but the largest recorded one had over 1,500 knots. And it was about this large for auditory reference. I'm literally the diameter is like my arm stretched out.
SPEAKER_05Like your wingspan.
SPEAKER_01Like my wingspan, that's the best way to describe it. So yeah, the largest one that they've ever uncovered was had a diameter this large. Um, so yeah, they can grow to be very, very large.
SPEAKER_00Wait, so if I let's say um modified this chord to communicate whatever message I wanted, who would be on the receiving end? I will get I will get into it.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah, I I was like wanting to ask that, but I'm like, I feel like you're gonna get into it sometime.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna get into it. But isn't that so fascinating? Like, no words, nothing, it's just knots. Yeah, and it's fabric.
SPEAKER_05It kind of reminds me of like an abacus.
SPEAKER_01It is actually a lot of people do um attribute like uh compare it to an abacus, like a fabric abacus, yeah, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I've never used one before, but like just yeah, the way you were describing like the different colors and the the knots, I guess is kind of like beads.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very similar. It is similar to an abacus, and I watched a lot of videos where it was described like uh fabric or like a thread version of an abacus. Yeah. Numerical keepers are the ones that we can actually understand. So in the in these type of kipoos, the knots encode the numbers in a base 10 system. So basically the same way that we count these days, like uh the Arabic numerals that we use, also base 10. Out of the approximately 900 keepus that have survived today, only about 20% are numerical, which are the ones that we've managed to translate. However, the remaining 80% have structural features like knot types, colors, color patterns, and chord arrangements that don't map into a numeric system at all. And those are the ones that have not been translated. And those are known as narrative narrative kippos or non-numerical kippus. And Spanish colonial accounts describe kippus as being used to record genealogies, laws, songs, ritual knowledge, um, like everything basically that comprised uh administrating this vastly complex society.
SPEAKER_05So there's accounts of people describing what this used to be capturing. Although we don't know exactly what it is now.
SPEAKER_01We know what it is and we know how it was used, but we're not able to translate.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because and a lot of the documentation also comes from a Spanish uh colonial accounts, and so those are also skewed and biased in ways that I will get into, but yeah, there we have enough knowledge of how it was used, just not how to actually read them, like how to translate them. Um yeah, and then you were asking who's on the receiving end. So the Inca actually had specialists that were called kipu kamayuk. Kipu Kamayuk. Okay, hopefully I'm pronouncing that correctly. But kipu Kamayuk literally translates to knot keepers, and these were people that were trained from their youth to um create and translate kipus, and they were the ones that would read the narrative content out loud. So they would um take these kipoos and through tactile movements, like touching the the knots and like weeding through them with their hands, they would uh derive the meaning from them and then they would vocalize that out loud to a goopa people or to people in general. Sometimes these were very public gatherings where they would read these keepus, and um, yeah, so that's kind of how they would be deciphered. And so from like the stuff that I've read, um, there is some under st basic understanding on how to read keepus that existed in like day-to-day life, like the average person might know how to read very simple ones, but primarily the people that could read um fully read complex keepos were the specialized people that were trained, and so it wasn't like common knowledge, it was something that you had to develop expertise in.
SPEAKER_05So I don't know if like this came up with any research, but did it work as in I had some information that I needed to communicate to somebody who's living like kilometers away from me, and then I have to tell somebody who's able to create these keepos, and then they create uh that pattern in the rope, which is then somehow given to the other person.
SPEAKER_01So unfortunately, we don't know um the the detail to which like the type of information that was conveyed. So there's a lot of uh accounts of administrative information, and I'll get into that, that was conveyed using keepos, but there is some debate about whether or not like simple messages were sent using keepus. Um, and there has been more recent research that has looked into different not symbolizing syllables, and that can indicate that there was there was more like storytelling that was being conveyed using keepos, but it's very difficult, and there isn't a lot of research or or evidence to support whether people were actually sending messages, specific messages between like people, like like common conversation.
SPEAKER_00Like, hey, how's it going?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Um, it's hard to say if that was the case.
SPEAKER_00But essentially it's a physical form of communication. Like if I were to give you a piece of paper with writing on it, they were communicating through these chords, essentially.
SPEAKER_01Yes, communicating and also maintaining databases. So I'll get into that more, but yeah, they basically it was a way to record keep, primarily.
SPEAKER_05Wow. I wonder if Braille is also somewhere connected to this.
SPEAKER_01Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_05Because like I generally don't know. So like this is just like a thought that popped into my head, but I just feel like there's like similarities, right, between having to feel the knots and then interpret the message, and at least at a very surface level, what I know of Braille.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Is like you're feeling like the patterns that there are in the grooves or the bumps, and that's how you kind of determine what is there. Maybe not a connection, but I guess it's a similar concept. So I wonder, like Yeah, I'm just curious to see like how if Yeah, like the tactile component. Yeah, like if it also had anything to do with accessibility. I don't know. But another thought I would also was going back and forth, I should go closer to my mic, and another thought that I was yeah, going back and forth on. It's like you mentioned that it is communicating administrative things and accounting knowledge, but just given how um rare the knowledge is to create the keepus and interpret them, I'm curious to see if those people were considered like prophetic or kind of held in higher status in society because they are kind of like gatekeepers of such a niche knowledge and ability, or if it was just considered like a skill that you just develop and these are people that just have these skills that they develop. Do you know what I mean? Like, I guess what my my question or like my curiosity is like if given their ability to do this like niche task, they were like higher in society, or was it just like, oh, some people know how to build a house, some people know how to do this?
SPEAKER_01So I think that for sure this was like a specialized skill, and the people that did this and had this knowledge were respected in their communities. Yeah, but I think it's so fascinating that you mentioned like these people being prophetic in a way. I think this is like a very, if you think about it, kind of like Western or like European type of way of thinking where knowledge equals power. Whereas something that I will get into later on is that I think a lot of, or maybe I shouldn't say a lot, this this specific uh indigenous community, because that's this is the one that I've researched. Um, knowledge was not really seen as like a tool for power, it was more like a community collaborative record keeping of like our history, as opposed to whoever owns this knowledge has power. Yeah. Actually, keep us were um held communally, so if you think about it, they were more like libraries, like library books, as opposed to books that you own. And so as a community, different people would work on the same keepu and updating the same kipu, as opposed to, you know, these specialists keeping them and like having ownership over them, and therefore they own some sort of knowledge or secrets.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was more like like you're more like a public servant in a sense. Yeah. Um, so the Inca state was actually not a culturally homogenous empire. So obviously that means that you know included many ethnic groups, many languages, and geographical environments, like everything from deserts to mountains to rainforests. And um, all of these groups would interact and trade with each other over this vast um road of networks that was the 40,000 kilometer uh road of networks that I mentioned earlier. And the Inca Empire actually um went from modern-day Peru uh to Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Argentina, Chile. So basically the entire like western side of South America essentially was part of the Inca Empire. So and without any currency, the only way that these communic communities could function is by trading labor. So essentially how it worked was that each household would owe the community a certain um, or the community or the state, a certain amount of labor. And in return for doing that labor, they would be awarded resources. And this extremely like sophisticated system was uh called mita. And so kippus were the core of record keeping to administrate this process, and this process along with kippos is what allowed the Inca Empire to expand so fast geographically in such a short period of time. So essentially the advantage here was that through this through these kippos, they were able to keep track of like how much labor a household uh owed the their community and also record keeping for the kind of resources they're receiving in return, like food or water or other resources. And so all of these were maintained in basically these registries or databases, which was in the form of kippus.
SPEAKER_00So they would just have all these cords sitting in some shed or location. Yeah. But how do you wow, it's just so interesting. Then like filing, organization, like how does that even work?
SPEAKER_01So I think a lot of it is still unknown, and there are archaeologists that are still uncovering and like working with a lot of these communities today to uh understand and translate these hippos. But I did um there was a video that I was watching where they were talking about how um there was one archaeological site that they uncovered where essentially there were different types of crop. So like they had peanuts and oh I can't remember, there was a few other different types of crops, and essentially what it looked like was like a storeroom where they were storing different types of crops, and there were kippos that were placed beside each crop. So what a lot of archaeologists believe is that those kippos were um relating to like inventory information about these different crops.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So they would store them with the crops, and then I guess like they would add to the kippos to keep track of like I don't know how much crop they have, what they've yeah, what they've distributed, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that makes more sense in that context.
SPEAKER_01And in terms of storage, what they would do is they would roll up these kipoos because they're really long cords, and when they got really long, they would just roll them, almost like parchment, I guess, and then that's kind of how they would store it. And in terms of transporting these keepus, they actually had specific people that were trained for this task. They were like runners, essentially, and what they would do is they would be given a kipo, and each runner had like a specific distance that they had to cross on this road, and they were different stations where there would be other runners. So it's like a relay basically. So one person would take the keepu from the starting location to the next station, I guess, and then at that point they would pass that keepu on to the whoever's working at that station, and the the first runner would get a chance to rest and whatever recuperate, and then that person would go to the next station, and that's how they kind of like went across the entire network of roads to transport these. And this is before the time of any sort of vehicles, like they didn't have any sophisticated tools, they didn't have medals, they hadn't didn't even have like wheels, so they didn't even have wheelbarrows or cards. This was all done by foot or horseback.
SPEAKER_00Wait, so this means that they must have needed some ubiquitous network of people who are ready to receive and carry these keep us everywhere. Yeah, like and use of the geographical region was like the entire western side of South America. So even that level of organization to know that people are ready to receive it or there to pick it up on time, like the delays that may have come from that kind of thing is crazy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was a highly complex civilization where everyone had a role.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, the also the obvious advantage with kipoos is that they they actually have quite an advantage over ink and paper scrolls, uh, or like other techniques of record keeping that were being used like across the globe. Because in those methods, you require a material and then you require some sort of tool, like ink or you know, quill or whatever. Um, whereas kipoos only required thread. And so that provides, like, first and foremost, like r material res resilience. So kipos are made from. Like fibers, typically wool or cotton, and these materials are obviously more resistant to humidity than paper, for example, which will which paper can you know tear, it can rot if there's a lot of humidity, moisture. Um, there also isn't, as I said, there's no dependency on ink. So you like ink can fade, it can run. Really obvious uh sort of things where paper and ink is like subject to um like the elements. And then the other thing is flexibility. So fibers and cords can flex and they can they're very flexible. So unlike paper that can like tear under physical stress, like you could just wrap these cords and they're way more durable. Uh, and then the other thing too is that these can actually be read in dark or low lighting because it doesn't require visual, like you don't have to look to read, you just feel the fibers. And actually, like it would be very difficult to read some of these really complex um kipo's by like laying them on a flat surface. There, a lot of them were huge and they were very complex, and a lot of the chords are very close to each other. So, really, the only effective way of reading them was to like hold them in your hand, feel the knots, right? Right, and also the interesting thing is that kippus were also embedded in religious practice. So uh the Inca ritual calendar was very complex, like when they have certain like rituals, when they celebrate certain things, um, and they were also connected to like agricultural cycles and like astronomical events, and so there were specific ritual specialists that would use these kippus to track these schedules. And yeah, and the Inca actually had no like written any type of like stories or history that was like written on paper or stone, so it really just lived in these kippus and also the memories of those specialists, the kipu Kama Yuk, that could read them. And so you can imagine that um if these people no longer exist, then you lose the tr capability of translating these kippus as well. But yeah, now let's get into the colonization. So this this the unfortunate sad part that led to the fact that a lot of these cannot be deciphered anymore. Um so essentially, like broad overview, when the Spanish executed um the king of the Inca Empire, they dismantled the court as well. And in doing so, they obviously they did kill the king, but they also kind of severed that that um like thread, I guess, of like the institutional um application of the kippus. And so because of that, the kipukamayuks that survived had no court to serve in. So a large part of these um kipukamayuks, they were in a sense employed by the court to then do these administrative tasks and manage these kippos. And so now because they didn't have a court to serve and then there were no more uh people being trained, eventually over time their knowledge just died with them within two to three generations. And so when we get more into colonization, Spanish colonization, the earliest Spanish administrators were actually pretty um practical about kippus. Like they honestly they they showed up and they felt like they needed to govern this huge uh swath of land that they didn't understand. And the Inca administrative records uh that were saved in the form of these kippos were actually really detailed and like very reliable. And there are actually documented cases from uh the 1540s and 1550s of Spanish officials actually encouraging kipu readings and they use the kipu census data for um as like to to be able to perform administrative tasks. And some indigenous leaders um actually use this to their advantage by even using kippus to present uh to they even presented kippus in colonial courts as evidence for different trials.
unknownOh wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, things like land rights and community histories. They would use it as like evidence, like this is we've been record keeping and this proves that we own this piece of land, or we, you know, whatever the case may be, whatever's being contested in the court. Um, however, this was always in uh there was always tension between um the use of kippus and the religious agenda of the Catholic Church. And so over time the religious agenda kind of won. And the first council of Lima in 1551 began raising concerns about indigenous religious practices, and kippus were associated with those practices because, as I mentioned, kippus were used in these ritualistic um activities and also just to record like the calendar that they followed. And so um, because of that, they were or they ordered that kippus be destroyed, and so the Third Council of Lima actually made this an explicit policy, and they ordered the burning and confiscation of kippus with religious content, and um parish priests were actually directed to seek out and destroy kipo's in their communities because they were being used in kind of like indigenous religious practices, so that was the initial sort of pretext under which they passed this law, but ultimately, like as it happens in many, like, you know, many times when colonizers colonize uh a place, there was definitely, in my opinion, uh, and a lot of archaeologists have suggested that there were ulterior ulterior motives. Because if you sever these communities uh record keeping, then you also reduce their like power in general in general to govern themselves. Um and it was actually prosecuted. Like it was there were official inspectors that were appointed to travel to these communities, and they were supposed to interrogate, interrogate residents, identify practitioners of traditional religion, and destroy these objects.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely like tragic. You're basically just erasing an entire culture. Um and yeah, over time they became wary of admitting testimony in courts using keep us as well because they felt that they couldn't verify the aut authenticity, which is ironic because you if you actually invested time into translating and you know working with the specialist to understand um how to interpret these kippus, then you would be able to verify their authenticity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But they just, you know, completely destroyed that tradition. Um, and yeah, basically the the message that they were sending to these indigenous communities was that your records don't count, your history doesn't count, and the only ones that matter are Spanish ones. And so this like legal process, it destroyed kipoos physically, but it also destroyed the institutionalized like purpose of kipo's. So this form of uh communication was largely uh protected by the fact that it was used to administrate things, like it was used to record these like trade and like all these different things, like taxation and stuff like that. But if you remove that, then naturally there is less need for kipoos. And so over time the question becomes like why should we even train another generation of kipu Kamayuk because their testimony has no legal standing, they essentially don't have a job.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But fortunately, individual communities did still continue making and using simpler kipoos for local record keeping. And so this tradition has actually survived in certain places.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the the issue with this though is that because that highly specified, the highly specialized um knowledge that these kipu Kamayuk held has kind of died. Um, as I said earlier, there was some s simpler kipo's that were uh that people in these smaller communities were able to interpret. Those practices have still persisted, but they've lost the ability to translate the really large administrative kippus.
SPEAKER_00Um it's scary when you hear stories like this because you realize how much history, how much of people's voices have just been lost as a result of other hands, and like there's so much we don't know out there, and there's no recovering any of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And also it's like an insane colonialist mindset to think that like I've showed up here in a place that has such a rich culture and history, it's an empire that covers like like 4,000 kilometers of like one of the most extreme terrains on earth. Like there's just like, you know, I said like mountains, rainforests, all these things. And this is a group of people that have been self-governing for so long. Yeah, it's just such an such a strange colonial mindset to come here and be like, oh, this all this stuff that they're doing to govern themselves is like primitive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I wonder if it was a combination of them thinking it's primitive, but also potentially feeling threatened by it.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_05Because like, I don't know, like if I were to see all of this, how can you possibly think that it's primitive? If anything, I don't feel this way. I'm not a I don't have a colonial mindset, I hope. Um, but like if I was like putting myself in those sh in their shoes, like I could kind of feel like, wow, these people have like a very efficient way of operating and communicating, and at the end of the day, I just care about conquering. So instead of like understanding, I'm just going to eradicate all of this instead.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I feel like traditionally how colonials colonialization has gone is they either eradicate it or they confiscate it and steal it and participate.
SPEAKER_05So yeah. And even though, like, as you mentioned, a lot of the keepers were for administrative tasks in like when they destroyed all of those, like, there's obviously knowledge and information that we've just completely lost at this point. And I wonder how much more advanced our society would be if we didn't destroy all of that knowledge. Like in the process of destroying it, I wonder if we have like had to restart and like relearn things that other communities already knew. You know, yeah, I don't know if I'm articulating it correctly, but yeah, it's just like lost. But in we could have instead maybe like worked with them to build upon this and like advance, like I said, um, I don't know, in a more sustainable way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, also imagine like living in a world without money. Like, that's a concept that we can't even grasp anymore. But this was a community in this, like, you know, that stretched such a vast geographical area that was literally surviving and you know, had complex economic structures without money. Like, even something like that, like the not what you're talking about, knowledge, like the knowledge of that has also died with these kipos.
SPEAKER_00No, it's clear that this was like definitely an advanced civilization for its time. And uh yeah, it's just another one of those unfortunate stories of being completely destroyed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, but there was also active concealment. So there were communities that deliberately hid kipoos from colonial authorities, and however, this was considered like a crime, like an act of resistance, and it was dangerous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if these people were, you know, found in possession of kippos, you could face punishment, you can face public humiliation, forced labor, and even cases of physical violence. So they were being physically punished for holding on to their history. It's just absolutely insane.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and yeah, and then also, you know, it won't be a colonizer story without stolen artifacts being preserved in a museum.
unknownOh no.
SPEAKER_00Oh no.
SPEAKER_01So some amount of these surviving kippos. Yeah, some amount of these pr uh surviving kippus are collected and have been displayed and are currently displayed in museums all around the world. Uh including Berlin, Paris, and New York. And it goes without saying these were taken without consent, obviously.
SPEAKER_00Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Uh so yeah, and then the last little thing I wanted to talk about is the what we talked about earlier, like the bias that exists in, you know, when um history is written from the perspective of the colonizer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So every written account of Kipu actually come from the colonial period that was um and those records were produced by Spanish men that were operating under uh the patriarch patriarchal Catholic Church. And so what happened as a result of this is they practically erased the role that women played in kippus.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, wow.
SPEAKER_01So their accounts focused overwhelmingly on male political and military power.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So talk they recorded a lot about like the emperor, the nobility, the army, the bureaucracy, but women appear primarily just as wives. Um, but in Andean society, textile production was actually one of the most prestigious activities. And they had something called the Alacuna, who were elite women that were selected from a young age to be trained in the weaving in weaving institutions, like literally schools where they would go to learn this weaving. And these institutions were called Alawasi, and those are the ones that produced the most prized textiles in the empire. But again, Spanish, their record keeping, they described these uh schools and these women in terms of their relationships to the men. So often they were just referred to as concubines or wives or just like lowly women. It's just so disturbing, so vile. Like they couldn't imagine a community where women were equal participants or had like a prestigious role.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so they just that's just how they recorded their history. And this also um erased the history of female um kipu kai kipukamayuk. So there were actually a lot of female kipukamayuk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just noticed like when you were describing the whole thing, you didn't genderize the argument at all until like yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like the most of the recorded history just talks about these male kipukamayuks, but there were actually female kipukamayuks as well. However, once the Spanish invaded, they didn't they would never summon um female kipukamayuks to give official testimonies. So in the initial parts, the initial stages of the colonization where they did accept kippus, they would not ever allow female kipukamayuks to enter like courts. And yeah, so because of that, like the domains where the kipu uh women's kipu knowledge was likely the strongest, so like household and community level record keeping, uh agricultural accounting, that kind of stuff was lost.
unknownOkay, right.
SPEAKER_01And actually a 2025 study that was done by Sabine Highland, who's like a really renowned uh archaeolog uh anthropologist that has studied kipoos extensively, um, analyzed a kipu whose primary cord was actually made of human hair. So there have been few examples of kipoos that were made from human hair.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and this specific cord was actually um they ran it through like they were able to extract DNA from it and identified that the hair was actually female. So women actually were part of this process.
SPEAKER_00Wait, so is it also understood why they were using hair?
SPEAKER_01No, that is something that is still like highly debated.
unknownInteresting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But there is conversation about how record keeping about like social relationships was also possibly held by women. So within a community, like how people are connected to each other, like socially. Yeah, I think it's just it's just interesting that like reading in European context is a silent activity. Whereas, I mean, yes, you can read out loud, but generally speaking, it's a more silent activity. But in this culture, it was like a community activity, and it was done out loud. And yeah, I just think that it's fascinating because it translates into like their culture, which is that you as a person you derive meaning based on your role in society, and that's kind of how kipo's work too. Like a singular knot doesn't have meaning on its own, it has meaning in the context of the kipu.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And so I think it just like yeah, it's just like an interesting conversation about like the philosophy behind it and how it like language always is a reflection of society, and society's a reflection of language, and you can see how like this kind of Spanish-European approach to organizing society, it kind of focuses on power. Whoever holds knowledge holds power. But in these indigenous civilizations, it wasn't about holding power, it was about community.
SPEAKER_00More utility-based, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, very like collectivist mindset as opposed to like individualistic. And like no one has yes, they had hierarchical structures, but it was like more like community focused, and no one has, you know, more power, like knowledge is meant to be shared.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it also begs the question of like, you know, because this kind of European philosophy is what dominated our history and is resulted in the world we live in today, it makes you wonder if like these type of civilizations had persisted, would our world look different? Would there be not so much like concentrated power in the hands of a few? Whereas right now the idea is that these like top elites that run the world have access to knowledge that the average person doesn't, and in having that knowledge they can, you know, make do what they want with that knowledge and like do things that affect us without our knowledge. I just think it's so fascinating when we talk about um late-stage capitalism and how much like it sucks and we all hate it. But I think a lot of those conversations boil down to like, okay, well, what's the alternative?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, when you study these indigenous cultures, indigenous populations where they were able to govern, like in this case, like over 12 million people in this empire, um, without any currency and without like capitalism, it was really um there was this understanding that you would donate a certain amount of your time to the betterment of the community, and as a result, you would get the resources you needed to live.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's it's fascinating because it's like maybe there is an alternative way to living.
SPEAKER_00I think like unfortunately, um the level of nuance required is missing because we just don't have records of like the extent of their activities and how they ran things, but like, yeah, like if they were operating that way, then would class arguments come in? Like, if someone's has a certain job, are they of higher stature in society? Do they get more resources, things like that? Like, how was that allocated then? Yeah, that's true. Or was it generally just more community-oriented and that work for them? I I just like yeah, the logistics of it is confusing sometimes.
SPEAKER_01I also think like those kind of cultures survived because there was some sort of like cultural, spiritual ideologies like holding them together. This structure works so long as the rest of the community respects that dynamic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And a lot of it was based on like these religious beliefs or spiritual beliefs that you know you someone that has earned this position deserves this position and should be respected. But as soon as that structure falls apart, then like it doesn't really work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you could argue that even happens now, right? Like ideologies are what use is used to control and govern people. Like in the case of the Spanish, it was the Catholic Church.
SPEAKER_00And so Yeah, and then ultimately whether you want to argue for good or bad, it did unite them towards getting the job done that they were required to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it makes you question all also, like, is the pursuit of power and control like human nature? And and on the flip side, is the sort of I I I I almost wonder if there's two types of people, like two types of human. Those humans that uh chase that kind of power and control, and those that that chase having some sort of person that they can follow.
SPEAKER_00Right. But I think both can be attributed to the need to survive, right? True. Which is the most fundamental human thing, I think.
SPEAKER_01But you don't need power and control to survive. Like I think there are some people that like that kind of guidance, the kind of people that are drawn to, you know, organized religion, for example. They like feeling like they're protected and taken care of. Whereas some people want to be the ones that are in power, that are like controlling and like you know what I mean? I wonder if those qualities both exist in everyone, or if like human nature, some people are one way and some people are the other way.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And also makes you question like if colonization hadn't taken place, what would have happened to these cultures? Would they have naturally continued to live this way, or would there have been power dynamics and like um yeah, you know, class struggle, like class conflicts that would have maybe led to the same outcome? Yeah, even internally. Internally, yeah. Like over time or something. Like would they have survived?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I would like to believe they would have survived. Because then that gives you hope to believe that there is an alternative way to run society.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. But who knows? I think the desire to want to gain power though is innate. And like to your point that, like, if I understood correct correctly, like some people look for opportunities to gain more power versus others look towards someone that they can follow. I think it's almost one and the same. Because I somewhere, if I'm following someone, I think I believe that if I do so, I'm gaining more power.
SPEAKER_00Hmm.
SPEAKER_05And doing that as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like if served to your advantage.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like if I follow like Bob and I I'm revering Bob, okay, but like if I'm close to him, then I also understand, or I there part of me has to assume that there's some power that comes with that. Either like because of Bob's decisions, I'm going to like then get yeah, like get XYZ benefits, or you know, I'll yeah, honestly, that is what it is. Yeah, that's also why like that's how people also have like political affiliations, right? Like I might believe in a certain political party because I think they're going to then do XYZ that's going to help me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And if they're helping me, then you're also gaining more power at a much smaller scale, but in your pod or your community that you're trying to exist in. So, like, yeah, a part of me thinks that capitalism to some degree is inevitable. Like, I hate it as much as the next person, yeah. But I think we're kind of looking back at these things through a very idyllic lens, and eventually with time, even if undisturbed, I feel like some of these conflicts would have come up regardless.
SPEAKER_00Maybe they're form or another.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like maybe they yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say. Like, maybe it would be to like a different degree or un manifest in like slightly different ways, but I think like the root problem is still gonna remain the same. But that's maybe like I said, that's my jaded view.
SPEAKER_01It yeah, but I mean, even pre-colonization, there's been a lot of communities around the world that were did have like infighting and like all these things, so I think that's a valid argument.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, is the idea of self-actualization dependent on how much you know, in the sense that maybe I should have thought this out a bit more. But like, I don't know, like back in the day when people like if my entire family were farmers and I know that I'm gonna go be a farmer, because I didn't think that there was any other possibility, was I just okay with being a farmer, or was there a farmer somewhere that's like, no, I'm meant to be I don't know, like a like a weaver? And did they go through like this inner turmoil of like I need to like switch my place in society and like it I'm not fulfilled by my farm work, I need to like go make clothes. But that's kind of like a whole other separate thing.
SPEAKER_01No, that's true, like based on exposure. Because like, if usually from you know what l whatever little research I've done in general, like you would have communities that were into similar things, like farming communities would live together, like weavers or other like type of occupations would live together. I think that's true.
SPEAKER_05Like if I just didn't know there was something else there, would I still seek it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I think I think what there is a saying for this, like you can't do what you don't know or something. Um like cool.
SPEAKER_01Okay, should we move on to the next one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, yeah. So
Piraha Language
SPEAKER_00today I'm gonna talk about a language that's actually spoken by fewer than 400 people deep in the Amazon rainfall.
SPEAKER_01400?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's between like 350 and 400.
SPEAKER_01That's insane. That's literally like one-tenth of the population of the town that you grew up in. Okay, well, yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00I did come from a small town. Um, but going beautiful, but small. Yeah. Um, but yeah, this this this language or this topic has been a huge point of contention between academics for the past um like two decades. So let's get into it. So the language is called Piraha. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, but um, it belongs to an indigenous tribe of the same name living along the Macy River in northern Brazil. And the thing is that this isn't a language that's just a little unusual. Um, it's a language that's so fundamentally different from every other human language ever recorded that it threatens one of the most accepted theories of all modern linguistics. Um, to give some context, um I'll give you a quick baseline to understand what the principles of linguistics are that make this so different from everything else. Um so for decades, the dominant idea in linguistics, which was pushed heavily by this like really renowned academic named Noam Chomsky, is that humans are biologically hardwired for language. Like it's in our DNA. And because of that, every language on earth, no matter how remote or how different it sounds, shares certain deep universal features. The biggest one is called recursion. Have you guys heard of that?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I mean recursion as a concept, yes. Yeah, so that's that's what I'm I don't even know it as a concept. Okay, so in this context, uh linguistically, it's just another fancy word for the ability to nest ideas inside each other. So, like if I say, um, the man who lives by the river where the fish that my father caught swims is my friend. Something where okay, that I did not punctuate that properly, but the point is it's like you have multiple ideas or references happening within the same sentence, that's called recursion. Like layers that you can go down. Yeah, that's called recursion. And up until they discovered this Amazonian language, they assumed that every like language in human language has the capability to speak in this form. Um, and so Chomsky and other argues that this is the thing that makes human language unique, the thing that separates us from every other species, and supposedly every human language has it, and that was the assumption until they discovered this language, Puraha. Um, so who are the piraha essentially? That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Sorry to interrupt, but recur so like basically the I So basically you're describing the idea that like you can like keep describing things at deeper and deeper levels. Infinitely. Oh, yeah, like you could say that like Anchula's t-shirt that she bought from this store on this date is this color because it was dyed by these people from this community. Yeah, that's so true.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I never thought of that. Do you have an example of not non-recursive? Well, I think this is the example she's gonna. I mean, so like do you actually have a statement?
SPEAKER_00I mean, so just from that sentence that I said earlier, in the case of Piraha, from what I found at least, it would be like you would have to segment it. So it can't be a continuous stream of like linked terms or ideas. So it would be like the man who lives by the river, my father caught fish, or something like that. Like they would be segmented.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um so they don't have like commas. Yeah, it's it's obviously there's more to it. Yeah, it's partly grammatically, but it's not just like about punctuation, it's about the concept of continuity and like the thread of ideas.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so who are the paraja? The paraja are a tribe of roughly 300 to 400 people. They're not some newly contacted group either. Uh, they've had outsiders apparently showing up in their region since the 1700s, and for centuries they basically said, no, like don't come in. Um, and while neighboring tribes have since assimilated and learned languages like Portuguese and eventually lost their own languages entirely, the Piraha sort of retreated deeper into the jungle and maintained their um secular society. Um, and so it's essentially they say, like, this was this decision or this act is essentially what has preserved their language and their culture for this long. Um, and so the person who really opened up about this language to the world, or opened up this language or discovered it again, um, is an American linguist named Daniel Everett. And he didn't actually go there as a linguist, which is interesting. He went as a Christian missionary in the late 1970s with the goal of converting the tribe and translating the Bible for them.
SPEAKER_01Classic, classic.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, but he ended up spending decades with them and they converted him. He recognized.
SPEAKER_05Well, actually, nobody should be converting anybody. True. True.
SPEAKER_01That is true. Well, it depends on how he was converted. I I think was he convinced by like living in their community and like seeing how their uh traditions work?
SPEAKER_00Was he like I mean forced? It's reported that he basically came back an atheist and they dismantled his faith, his linguistic assumptions, and everything. They did quite the number because this language was so fundamentally erosive to everything that was established by that renowned academic I mentioned, like Noam Chomsky or something. Um, and so this is like as I I was mentioning this earlier, like um in trying to research this topic, I was watching this quick documentary, and I thought it would actually go into a deep dive about the language, but really it just turned into like a catfight between two academics. But basically, yeah, like the whole community was quite offended when this um person, Daniel Everett, who's a linguist, published his original paper about it, and he basically contradicted all established ideas. Um the primary one being related to recursion. So the argument is that because they don't have recursion in their language, it's not a language. No, no, no. He's just arguing that because recursion was considered a fundamental part of human language compared to other species like bees or any other species out there, um, that was like a ubiquitous universal feature of our communication style. But now this other community has shown that they don't need that to survive. But um there there's been a lot of like contentious activity, like since then, like a lot of researchers have gone back and identified more like nuances to the way that they converse. Um, but I'll I'll get into that. Okay. Um, so in terms of like features of the language itself, so the sounds, Pura has one of the smallest sound inventories of any known language, so there's three vowels, eight consonants. English has around 44 distinct sounds. Um, it's also tonal, apparently, like Mandarin, and the entire language can be whistled, so the actual grammar, not just a code. Um, the full grammar, the full meaning carried in pitch and rhythm alone. And hunters use it through the jungle to communicate without making noise.
SPEAKER_01Oh, interesting. So that's why it's like very soft and like few sounds. I think so. Or like one of the reasons would be to prevent being detected when they're hunting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. That's it. And so something else that was brought up was they don't have like definitive a definitive numerical system in the sense that they speak uh they don't even have like the word when I first found was reading into this, um, Everett's initial findings were that they don't have numbers, but then since then like several MIT researchers have come in and this they said that they ran a study where they gave them like 10 indistinct objects, yeah or distinct objects, sorry. Um, and when they asked them to count or like name or count them, yeah. I think they identified objects like six and above as two and one to four as like one. Oh, that's that's so cool. And other than that, they would speak relatively, so more or less some many like relative terms rather than definitive numerical stances.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. It's almost like they see numbers as like ranges, yeah. Like one to four is just like one thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, rough quantities, yeah, rough quantity. Interesting. And then another thing that I found is they don't have any color words per se, everything is relative. So blue and brown, as we establish across cultures, across paradigms, is like they would say like the sky. So referencing like their environment, referencing objects. That's that's really um, so yeah, no abstract color terms exist. Um and then I I guess some other findings include that there's no particular small talk, like greetings in the form of hello, how are you? It's more so everything just carries actual content instead of saying say thank you, they reciprocate kindness later. So it's very more like it's more action-oriented, action-oriented, utility-based. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um that's fascinating. So I wonder if they show affection or like how they show like what their interpersonal relationships are like. Because I feel like I would assume you're limited by well, I mean, I guess you can show it more physically. I wonder if they have more physical ways of yeah, I wasn't sure.
SPEAKER_00Like, I I'm not too sure about the interpersonal dynamics, yeah. It's more the logistics of the language itself. But um, generally, like, why does this language look like this? And Everett, who was one of the academics, again, like when you look at the this kind of research, there's arguments made on both sides, right? So I'm presenting one argument. This may not be the definitive case of the culture and community. Um, but basically, his answer to why the language looks like this or why it has been established like this is something called immediacy of experience. Um, and so the Piraha live entirely in the present, essentially. Their culture has a deeply held value, which is that you don't have to discuss what you haven't personally seen or experienced. Their stories are about today, their songs are about what they saw this morning. They don't have creation myths because yeah, because nobody was there, so how could you talk about it? Is the idea.
SPEAKER_05Wow, we said the same word, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I think their grammar also reflects this. So every statement carries what linguists call evidentially evidentiality markers, little suffixes that signal how you know what you're claiming. Did you see it yourself? Did someone tell you? Did you infer it? You can't just assert something, you have to attach your source. Um because that's the only reference. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so in that sense, it's actually an incredibly rigorous language built in fact-checking versus us just making these often grand statements. Like we don't often claim our sources.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if that limits their ability to create new concepts, not like physical items or like construction, but like if there isn't a lot of room for you to wonder about things that you can't see, then doesn't limit yeah, that you can't imagine. Yeah. Does that limit your ability to form complex thoughts? And also, how do you are do they not have also strong held traditions? Because that would be based on something you have to pass down, but if they live fully in their present.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking about this when I was reading this whole thing, is because the whole basis of like numerical accuracy or numerics in general was it was a huge like leverage and innovation, right? That's what led to our current technological era, everything. Um but I think that's also sort of a I don't know, I I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that's also sort of a Western mindset where like um education, language, numer numeracy is power or a source of advancement, versus for them, like it's not that they're incapable, right? It's just that for their utility, for their community, this serves their purpose, like they're able to carry out their functions of daily life for survival.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, and maybe they don't have that kind of as strong of an ambition to like advance. Like, I mean, and and using the word advance is also subjective because what is considered advancement, yeah. Um, like I think the way that the Western world or like we, you know, like in today's day and age think of advancement um might not be the way that like indigenous communities look at advancement, and I don't know, advancement has not always been great, like at the state of our world today. Yeah. But I wonder if to them the way that they live life in their in their present is good enough. Like not even good enough, but that's like they're happy with that.
SPEAKER_00I that's I think that's what's reported. Like that's the question that's come up, is like ultimately we're saying, like, oh, it's such a it seems like such a rudimentary form of communicating and coexisting, but they seem to be relatively content. I mean, based on reported findings, yeah. This uh like do we have first person accounts? That's hard to say, but um yeah, that that was a question that was brought up, is like we're making all these assertions, but uh has all of our advancement and our you know um use of numeracy and complex language really made us more content? I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it's a big question, like a loaded question.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I wonder I wonder if it's also saying that like you know, it does the pursuit of advancement rob us of enjoying our present.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I almost think that, yeah, it kind of does. And even with like the numer the m the what you were talking about with like counting, how they see one to four as one and more than six is kind of like two or like many, yeah, is kind of rooted in the fact that they're mostly not disc they're mostly describing things in front of them in the present. Yeah. So it there isn't that much value in being accurate about the quantity of things if those things are in front of you. Yeah, you don't really have to tell someone, oh, yesterday I had four apples. It's more like here you go, and you can see in front of you there's four apples. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Interesting. Do you mind me explaining like even though they can still talk about the past though, but through relative terms, no?
SPEAKER_00I think what I found was that those tenses just don't exist in their language. Like even the excerpts I saw, yeah, they're speaking very much in the present tense. Like in the translations as well. I see what you mean. Yeah. Um but yeah, generally, just like this whole built-in fact-checking mechanism of you know, like seeing saying, Did you see it yourself? Did someone tell you those being integrated into their language is also why there's no numbers, no colors, no abstractions. And then the number seven, for example, is an abstraction. The color blue is an abstraction that we have. Um, it generalizes across things beyond what you're experiencing right now, but the pirahas simply don't deal in abstractions. It's not that they can't necessarily, it's just that their culture has decided that those things don't belong in their speech. Um, and so emotion, yeah, of course they feel it um on a human level. They convey it through tone, through pitch variation, and above all through laughter, which functions as their primary social glue. And nearly everyone who visits them describes them as the happiest people they've ever encountered. And they've had a lot of like people come in.
SPEAKER_01That's what I'm saying. Like it makes you wonder if you know dwelling on the past and being worried about the future is actually what robs us of happiness.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it is that that's a very pillar of like mindfulness, right? Is being rooted and grounded rather in the present present moment.
SPEAKER_00I think uh yeah, some research have researchers have drawn comparisons to Zen Buddhism between this and this community.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Um, but yeah, what does it mean for language, evolution, and us? So if Paraja genuinely lacks recursion, Chomsky's theory that language is biologically hardwired falls apart completely. It would mean language isn't primarily in our DNA, it's in our culture, which is foment fundamentally like a different concept altogether, right? Where like initially it was um so basically language evolves to serve what a society needs to survive. Um, and so the paraja don't need past tense because they're not processing regret or anticipating the future. They don't need numbers because their economy is communal and immediate. The language isn't primitive, it's just perfectly optimized for their world and their needs. Um, and that's an enormous claim about what language is entirely. Uh there's also, you know, a bit of a geopolitical angle here. So the paraja have been in contact with outsiders since the 1700s, um, whether that be researchers or other communities, um, and neighboring groups have assimilated, learned Portuguese, and their languages died. Uh the poet, as I mentioned earlier, the paraja retreated and resisted. Um and so I think one of the questions that's most interesting is if the paraja live without future tense and they're demonstratably happier, what is our constant narration of past regret and future anxiety doing to us? Which is we kind of touched on that. Um and so yeah, it's not that as simple as saying that it's just a simple form of living or existing, it's just that they've optimized for something that we haven't necessarily.
SPEAKER_01It's also fascinating because then it I'm sure to some extent it also eliminates bias.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because a lot of our bias comes from um like some of it comes from our own experiences for sure, but also like we have things passed down to us, right? That's how like certain communities could have biased notions about a different community, even if they weren't, you know, if you weren't physically present during, you know, like a war or like a you know negative encounter that was experienced by your community years ago, like before you were born, you could still carry hate towards that community because of stories you've been told. But if you only rely on your experiences and what you've lived, then it at the very least would minimize that kind of bias. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think there's a lot of advantages, but even like in the very basics of what I know about human evolution, like the ability to imagine, the ability to dream and think in that way in a prospecting way, is also what allowed us to evolve in any form.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So it's it's a bit um push and pull, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but then it also begs the question like how much evolving is yeah, like at what point does evolving or advancement become a hindrance to us like achieving happiness, contentment?
SPEAKER_05But why are we conflating the way they speak to not advancing? Even if I'm just looking at something that's in the present, like even though they might not have the words for it, it can still inform my future. Decisions and thoughts.
SPEAKER_01But what do you think? I mean, I guess the question is what do they visualize when they think?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I do think language informs how we think. Even if you're someone that is more visual, how do you draw conclusions about things without the vocabulary to do so? But maybe you can.
SPEAKER_05But you can visualize imagine it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like being able to visualize something in my head that is independent from having the words to describe it. That's true. Because like for instance, like if we at a very basic level keep thinking that, oh, they're going to advance again, aero quotes. We all understand the subjectivity of that. But like they're not as advanced as a different community that might have like vaster vocabulary. Where am I trying to go with this? I just feel like that's untrue because like if I if I had like 10 apples today and I ate five of them, and then tomorrow I have like five left. What am I trying to say?
SPEAKER_00I think it would uh like you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's more so like um like let's say if I have the thought that cows can have wings, right? Like I get a visual of this or something. But if I don't have the langu linguistic means to communicate that through speech or through writing or any kind of visual form, then that thought is lost, right?
SPEAKER_01I also think it limits collaboration. I agree with you. I think you can still visualize it, but most things that need to be created require collaboration. If you if something that you're creating can be created entirely on your own, then absolutely I think you don't need words to describe it. But if you're trying to create something that requires the collaboration of multiple people, you have to be able to communicate to them what it is you want.
SPEAKER_05And in terms of like But why is their language limiting that?
SPEAKER_01No, it's not, it's not. But I think what it what I was trying to hint at is modern advancement is based on discoveries and um inventions that came before us. And if you don't have a good way to document the past, then how how do you build on stuff that was made in the past?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but that's that's the point I was trying to make where it's well, first of all, there's only like 300 to 400 of them, so I think it's much more easy to communicate in general because it's a smaller pool of people. True. Let's say because of global warming, now apples aren't growing, right? And now, like there's less and less apples every year. And if I'm like somebody that's part of this community, I know even if I don't have the words for it, that like, hey, last year there was like 10 apples at this point of the year, but this year there's only seven, and then another year goes by and there's five at the same time period. I know that, and so based on that knowledge, I can then assemble or dictate what I'm going to do.
SPEAKER_01But you have, but how can you pass you can't pass that knowledge on to someone else? And actually, that is I I did a quick search and it does say that like how past events are expressed, um, they lack absolute tenses like yesterday, but their grammar allows for includes suffixes that show if an action is finished or ongoing or if it happened elsewhere. And then they have these things called memory markers. So to talk about an event that occurred in the past, they pair a present tense sense statement with a word for memory. So for example, instead of saying I caught a fish yesterday, they say I catch fish, I remember. But it doesn't tell you when or how or what. Like, sorry, it tells you how or what, but it doesn't tell you when it happens. So they don't have words like yesterday or tomorrow. They just have a word that's basically says like other day, like someday that's not today. And so because of that, like, you know, their culture, like what you were saying, the immediacy of experience principle, it means that they can't they generally they don't talk about the deep past, like they have no form of fiction, they don't pass down collective histories or stories beyond what the living generations have personally witnessed. So once uh the witnesses of that event die, there's no there's no nobody to carry forward. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Interesting.
SPEAKER_01So I guess like if you and I experience something, we know we experienced it and we can communicate about experiencing it. But someone else that hasn't experienced it.
SPEAKER_05Well, I can tell them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you can tell them so long as you're alive. Yeah, but you want to you have to give evidence and you can tell them. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05But that's how it's passed down though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, isn't that that? Yeah, I guess that's how any history is passed down.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I guess that's that's kind of what I was convolutedly trying to express. Then if I have a child and then I tell my child, and then even once I die, my child now knows this, and then they tell a friend.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think what it is is like if you haven't personally witnessed it, you can't. Like you wouldn't pass something down. Pass something down. Cause I I don't know, I guess the question is maybe this was covered in your research or not, but the evidence you give, can can it be someone told me? Or does evidence have to it has to be evidence from stuff you've seen?
SPEAKER_00That's a good point. Like, does it have to be a first-hand account?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Cause if that's the case, then yeah, that would be limiting. You can't pass down anything. That's really interesting.
SPEAKER_05I feel like my brain hurts. I feel like this truly I get why this became such a contentious topic.
SPEAKER_00And I will just uh, you know, give a disclaimer, I did research, but this is of course a very nuanced conversation. It's been in debate for 20 plus years. Yeah. And I'm presenting.
SPEAKER_05We ain't gonna solve it in this hour.
SPEAKER_01I don't think there is a solution, really. It's just it's just yeah, I meant that as like a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like there's there's not gonna be a gr I don't know, it's it's complicated, it's nuanced, and I'm presenting the arguments of one um academic who presented this contradictory idea. Yeah. Um, and since then researchers have gone back in and made new discoveries. So if you're interested as a listener, definitely go into it more.
SPEAKER_01But this is just one brownie perspective. No, it's very fascinating. I think like it's forcing me to rethink like why do we need so much communication? Is is more communication actually hurting us? Because I think there's this commonly held belief that communication is what has allowed us to, you know, develop as this like species that the sophisticated species, but is over-explaining and over-communicating things also just causing us a lot of grief because we actually believe a lot of things that we don't have firsthand evidence for all the time. Most of the things that form my belief system are based on things that I've been told, read in books, I've been taught at school. Imagine things that you deem credible sources versus not credible sources. Yeah, exactly like for example, I wonder if brainwashing is like n just would just be impossible.
SPEAKER_05If you cannot communicate anything as well, maybe that's why they were immune to the missionary.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe that's why they were immune to wait, what do you mean? So like if you can't communicate anything, if you can't state anything that is not a fact, and every fact you state has to be you have to provide evidence for, and that evidence has to be something you've witnessed, then it's not really possible for someone to come to you and convince you of things that you haven't seen yourself.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And that means that it would be at least very difficult, if not impossible, to brainwash someone. Or brainwash is a very dramatic word, but like, you know, to convince them of an ideology they don't believe in, maybe that's why it's been very difficult to convert them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Because like I might say, Oh, this god exists, okay, where I don't know, but I think they're like upstairs. Obviously, I'm like oversimplifying this, but they're like, What do you mean upstairs? You know, it's just like, yeah, I can't see it, so it doesn't exist. So what are you convincing me of?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like it's it's like I wonder if that creates a society where there's no bias.
SPEAKER_05There's no but there is still bias though, right? Because like my one experience is then informing my entire thought process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you can still collect memories over time.
SPEAKER_05But then again, that's personal though. It's I don't think you can erase bias. Like if I'm walking and I trip on this route, and then in my head, I'm like, every route is bad, and every route that I look at I'm going to trip on.
SPEAKER_01But then you also have evidence that like ten times you you walked over a route and you didn't fall. Like it's not like they're not not capable of like logical thought.
SPEAKER_05But it but like what happens if in my experience every time that happens I do trip? Even though that that could just be a me thing. But like you on the other hand, you're like, no, I just walk more carefully than you, and so every route does not make me trip.
SPEAKER_01But you can see that other people didn't trip.
SPEAKER_05But that's only if I see it.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, you still live in a community. Because then that would form your personal experience. Yeah, you still live in a community.
SPEAKER_05No, I know, but I guess I I think it's an oversimplification to say that, in my opinion, to say that they just won't have bias. No, I think bias still exists. That's what that's the point I was just trying to make, where I think like there is always going to be bias.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I found this one thing about it.
SPEAKER_01But it would be heavily reduced because you're not relying on things people have told you. You're relying on what you've experienced. It would be reduced.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, maybe it would be reduced. I just don't think it would be eliminated.
SPEAKER_00That's fair. I found this thing on suffixes. It says the para the paraha use suffixes differently. So suffixes denote how much evidence a speaker has to support what she is saying. So linguists call these sort of suffixes evidential and they're a highly productive way of speaking. A paraha and evidential of which there are three can convey information for which an entire English sentence might be needed. So for example, let's consider how the paraha expressed your boat has a hole in it. Right? So the first type of suffix denotes hearsay. I know it because I was told it. The second indicates observation, I can see fish swimming in it. And the third deduction, I can see your boat sinking, so it must have a hole in it.
SPEAKER_01So that's kind of So they do have a way of communicating um that someone my evidence is that someone told me. Yeah, essentially. Okay, so then that kind of resolves some of the things we were talking about.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's what I'm saying, where like they are able to advance.
SPEAKER_01Then they would do have bias. Because if they're basing their evidence, like if someone telling them something is acceptable evidence, then they can have bias. Yeah. Based on the source of their the person that's giving them that evidence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it would appear that they do have some form of communicating that this was not my first hand account or you know, someone else. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I guess the degrees of separation from the source is limited. Yeah. Because they also don't have recursion. You can't say that like my friend's mom's sister said this. But you can say, I heard this or someone told me this. Yeah, essentially, I think. I mean, obviously, we're just guessing.
SPEAKER_00Like, we don't know for sure, but that's really interesting. Yeah, if the listeners are interested, um, this academic um Everett. What's his name? Daniel Everett. He wrote a book called Don't Sleep There Are Snakes. Um and uh he basically details his entire experience there and all of his findings in a literary story format. So if you're interested. You can read it. What's it called? Uh Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes. I'm looking it up. I'm gonna get it. The sounds so fascinating.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm really curious about this.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, that is the Paraha tribe. Fascinating. That's like the I've said that word like ten times.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I feel like your entire segment, I'm gonna call it a segment. I was just like, whoa.
SPEAKER_01I think it broke my mind.
SPEAKER_05That's what I was saying earlier. Like, my brain hurts, like, what do you mean?
SPEAKER_01Because we pride ourselves on our complex form of communication, how it advances society, but I think like do we know all this shit, man? Yeah, yeah. I mean What is the point of this podcast? Yeah, yeah, why are we? Why are we talking about any of this? Telling people more information that maybe they don't need.
SPEAKER_05It's not in front of them.
SPEAKER_01But I wonder if like how that affects like human curiosity and stuff. Because I think that is innate.
SPEAKER_05But I guess they're all scientists because they they are like based on the case. I'm curious about this. Let me go test it. It's not like hmm, maybe it's this.
SPEAKER_00Evidence informed practices only. Yeah, it's all the empirical evidence.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. They said primary research.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, no, they do they do refer to other people's findings, but but like not as heavily.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and of course, like it's it's this is over two decades of material, so it's complicated, and there likely have been more recent findings, but it's just the principle or like the idea I was trying to convey is that this kind of broke the entire I can see why. Yeah, it broke the entire premise of what we understood about human language and human modes of communication. Like the concept of recursion was considered universally accepted across domains, geographies, languages, and now this um tribe, this community has obviously shown that they can survive and thrive without that.
SPEAKER_05So
Jingrwai Lawbei
SPEAKER_05today, you know what? I'm actually not going to exactly reveal what this is. Let me let me paint a picture. Alright. So I want you guys to imagine yourself walking through a dense, humid jungle in northeast India. There's a lot of mist, it's very hazy. When you are able to see through the mist, there's like these huge hills, and then suddenly you're starting to hear a melody that's kind of like floating through the trees, and you're like, is this an animal? Is this someone talking? Is this like what's going on? So, what you're probably hearing is people calling out to each other in the state of Megalia, specifically in the village of Kokthong. So this village is located in the East Kasi Hills, and there not only do people have names like you and I, so that's kind of referred to as a common name, but they also have a name that's specific to them that is a melodic tune, and that's called Jingrawai Lao Bei. And as we said for the millionth millionth time, I'm sorry if I'm not pronouncing this correctly, but I'm really trying. So Kok Thong is a village, as I alluded to, that's home to around about 700 residents, and it's only accessible by like a three-hour drive from Shillong, which is the capital city of Megalia. And that road itself was actually developed in 2014. So prior to that, yeah, yeah. So prior to that, it was like a very difficult place to reach, um, at least for like the average Joe, because there wasn't like proper road access. And so Jingra Wai Lao Bei is um uh it is like a big part of their culture and something that has existed for centuries. And while talking to like people in the community, they don't particularly know when it exactly took form. But the idea or the rough estimate is that it was even prior to the Sora dynasty or the Sora era of time, and so that in itself means that it's at least 500 years old. So, as I was saying, in this village, people have three names with the common name, and then the Jingrawai Lao Be, and then also a nickname, which is just a shorter form of that melodic tune that I was like referring to earlier. And so it is a personal melody and it's about 14 to 20 seconds long, like the entire tune.
SPEAKER_01And it's that is long.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's I'll I'll play you guys a clip as well. Um and it is unique to one person, and so once you pass, that tune is gone. So there's no, like you don't really repeat these tunes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so they don't you can't reuse them.
SPEAKER_05No, you don't reuse them. And the reason why it's not really reused or that doesn't really happen is because it's composed by the mother while, or like in the first week or two of the child being born, and so that experience in itself is very intimate, and it's something that kind of happens just between the mother and the child. Yeah. And the there was a quote from there's like two main sources. There was a couple different sources, but some of the main sources were around this article I read, and then also the documentary I watched. So a quote from there that described it, I think, really well is that the Jingerwai Lao Be is an expression of a mother's unbridled love and joy at the birth of her child. It's like a mother's heart song, full of tenderness and almost like a lullaby.
SPEAKER_00So wow, and they make it themselves.
SPEAKER_05Yes, okay.
SPEAKER_01The mother makes it so like all these people that live in this t town, city, village, village are just incredible composers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's actually very, very neat.
SPEAKER_01And it has to be fully unique too.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um, so I'm actually gonna play a play quick not quick, I'm gonna play you.
SPEAKER_01I I have a question though. Maybe you're gonna answer this later, but is there a way that they keep record of all the tunes that have been used already? Because once someone passes, how do you know that you haven't inadvertently reused some like a tune?
SPEAKER_05Uh there's no record keeping of it, but it is kind of just assumed that that is a very rare likelihood that you're going to recreate an entirely similar 14 to 20 second long tune.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's true, I guess.
SPEAKER_05I'm sure there's like influence that like, you know, if you growing up you heard something that you really liked, you might like use components of it, but the but the notion that it would be exactly the same, that's like very that's very rare, right?
SPEAKER_01Like And I guess like in families you would have an idea of what your ancestors like that not ancestors, but like people that have recently passed, what their tunes sounded like. Okay, let's hear it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it doesn't exactly so interesting. Yeah. So essentially, um, like I was saying earlier, not only is it kind of an expression of like a mother's love and just almost a lullaby, like even when they're making their child like go to sleep or just trying to like soothe them, they'll often like sing this tune to them. Um, but it is also primarily used as a way to just call out. So let's say, and it also varies. So, like let's say you and I are in a playground, right? And the playground's not that big. I can call out your name, but I would probably use the shortened form. So not the full 14 to 20 second version of your name, but like that nickname that I was referring to earlier. However, because this village is like located in the hills and farming and agriculture is like kind of the primary industry that's there, they often spend time in the jungle. So it's obviously much harder to communicate there because there's so many like physical barriers and just longer distances. And if I'm trying to call out to you, that's when I would use like the full length of your name, which is like the 14 to 20 seconds. And then that way it's more likely to kind of travel that distance. And once you hear the name, hear your name. So I heard I saw two different accounts of this, but by and large, what I like read online was that when someone calls your name out to acknowledge that you've heard them, you sing it back. So it's kind of like a really intimate form of communication. Obviously, I don't mean to put words in their mouths. I don't know if they particularly feel that way, but just as an observer, it's truly just like a connection that you're forming. Like I'm singing to you, and then you're singing back to me.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05So I thought that was that was really neat. But um, going into more detail, like Dringer Y Lao Be specifically, that term roughly translates to the song of the clan's first woman or the first mother's song. And so the part Lao Bei is actually the name of what this community believes as their um one of their primary or sole ancestors. And the spirit or this ancestor is a woman. So when you're singing someone's name, again, you're not only so when you're they're a child, obviously there's a connection between the mother and the the baby, but then it's also a way to like actually call out to them and get their attention, but at the same time, you're also paying respect and seeking blessings from the ancestor of Lao Bei. So there's like many layers to its meaning. And yeah, as I mentioned earlier, um, it does tend to be like higher pitched, and you also heard it, and there's no actual resemblance to any recognizable musical or verbal form. So this is very unique to like this village. There haven't there hasn't been much connection to like other parts of the world or even just within India, of like this being similar to something else in terms of like the way it sounds, which is super cool. So I don't know if you guys noticed, but there is like a kind of like an overall theme of motherhood and just like maternity between like the mother composing this and then also Lao Being the being like the ancestor who's a woman. Right. And that's because the Kasi people um actually live in a matril I can never pronounce this word, matrilineal society. So they trace their identity through their mother's clan, which is quite different. Different than most communities, frankly, that we see where you you take on like your father's last name. Yeah. But in amongst Kasi people, it's it's the opposite. So the children actually inherit the mother's clan name, and property traditionally also passes to the youngest daughter in the household. And that daughter remains in the house, in the ancestral home, and then often becomes like the head of the home. So yeah. So like let's say I have like multiple children. Um, if I have like other daughters, they can leave and move to like wherever they want to go. The sons can also do that, but the youngest daughter remains at home and kind of carries on that home and becomes, like I said, like the lead or the head of it.
SPEAKER_01So that she can't get married?
SPEAKER_05No, she gets married, but then like her partner moves into their ancestral home. Like the home is assigned to interesting.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_05So that in itself was really like fascinating to me, and I think helps like paint the picture more of like the connection of like Lao Be and the woman and the mother. Um yeah. And what I did, this is kind of like a detour, but like I mentioned earlier, not many societies are matrilineal. Um, so I was kind of like doing like a small, very small deep dive into it. But apparently, people in the Kasi region were not always matrilineal, and they were also originally followed like a patriarchal society, where but the reason why this changed is because like years and years ago, warriors would leave these mountainous regions to go do their thing, battle it out, and either they would pass away or they would eventually just kind of settle in the plains and like have new families. But in either circumstance, what happened is that the women were kind of left behind um with their children and they would often then remarry. But then there was obviously a the stigma around it, um, because like, oh, you're a woman, where's your husband, blah, blah, blah, you're remarrying. But on, but then on top of that, it's it's hard to now trace or keep track of your child's ancestry. Right. Right? Because, like, okay, the person, like their biological father has passed away or no longer lives with you, but then now you're remarried. So, like, what is this child's name? Or like, what is this child's like ancestry? Right. So instead, over time they kind of shift it towards a mutual lineal society where if you just keep connecting it to the mother, the mother is constant, and that doesn't change. Yeah, so yeah. And obviously, over time then the stigma reduced because it's like, well, I can't help it. My man passed away, or he just decided to like not come back home. Like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah, but yeah, I just thought that was like pretty neat.
SPEAKER_01Like, actually, I have a question. So they're a matrilineal society, but are they also a matriarchal society? Because I know those things aren't the same. Like, one is the idea that your lineage is passed down and property and things like that through like your maternal line, but is the construct of the soci the fabric of the society also matriarchal where like women kind of lead?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So to some degree, like I did read about how women have a very active role in society. So they also hold jobs, they're also working in the fields, they're not like stereotypically what you would assume to be like limited to the household. Um, but interestingly, they're not part of the governing, like the governing bodies in the village.
SPEAKER_02I see.
SPEAKER_05So that is still limited to the men, um, but they do play a very active role in society overall.
SPEAKER_01I see.
SPEAKER_05In terms of like work or making decisions in their household, and like um I don't know if I mentioned this. I know I said that the the youngest daughter stays at home, but also properties pass down through the women.
SPEAKER_01Right, you mentioned that.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I did, okay. So in some ways, yes, in other ways, no. But yeah. Yeah, I guess like going into the going into like the spiritual meaning of Lao Bei more. So as I mentioned, um, Lao Be is kind of understood to be the founding ancestress of like all of these clans and is kind of revered or seen as a protector, um, a guide and kind of like the origin point of all these different communities. And so each of these clans trace their um genealogy back to Lao Bei, making her kind of like the foundational connecting link of the clan.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05Um, yeah, so essentially, like I mentioned, she's considered the guardian protector, but she is also supported by the goddess of Kale Long Cor Kaleongite. That was long, but hopefully I got most of it. Um, and that's the goddess of clan preservation. So, again, like a lot of the people, not people, but the goddesses or spirits that they look up to are women. Um, and another reason why they also trace genealogy through like the the maternal side is to maintain clan exogamy. So that's essentially the rule that you cannot marry someone who's part of your clan.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So they're anti-incest.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so again, this is like a way that prevents that, where if you are again tracing your genealogy through your mother, that's less likely to happen and then you don't actually participate in some ancestors' behavior. Um, and yeah, and also like if you go back into like some of the legends and the folklore, apparently, like in Kasi stories, um, female characters consistently hold more prominent roles than even male characters. Um, and again, just affirming that whole idea that being a woman is not less than it's still like a respectable, like you're you're still respected in society.
SPEAKER_01So the calling out of names, like using the melody, yeah, is that something that only the mother would do?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_05So I was also, yeah, I was gonna speak about that. So what's it's not just between a mother and their child, like their son, sorry, not their son, their father, their friends, they all know like your name, and they also call it out. So, like in the documentary that I saw, it was so cute. They were asking like these little kids, like, yes, like how many friends do you have? And then like this girl was like, I have five friends, and she's like, Okay, like can you sing me their names? And so, yeah, they memorize like the tune of all their friends.
SPEAKER_01See, that's that's impressive.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And so normally you think they just memorize a short tune or like the full thing? I think it varied. I think like when I was watching the documentary, some of them it sounded longer. Yeah, but I think the nickname is typically what they go by, and like so many melodies to remember.
SPEAKER_01Like these people are very musical, they have like a they're like have a gifted ear for music.
SPEAKER_05Because, like, I will say some of the like one mother was talking or was reciting like her children's songs, and I've got to realize I'm kind of toned off. Um but particularly in this instance, I'm like, they sounded like really similar to me, but obviously they're all unique, like that's a huge part of it that it needs to be unique for each person. Yeah, um, so yeah. And like another person in the documentary was talking about I think she was a unique case, but she was like, I think I can recite like 500 of the 700 people's tunes.
SPEAKER_01Wow, wow, yeah. And so I wonder if this community produces a lot of musicians.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, maybe.
SPEAKER_00I I obviously didn't come across that per se, but wait, so I um what is the advantage of communicating this way, or if it's it's is it just something that they've established within their group?
SPEAKER_05A, it's a cultural practice, and B, it's just given the region that they're in, it's easier to like call for someone to hear a song because it's like longer and it's melodic over greater distances. Right. And it can like echo and like reverberate so that people can actually hear. Yeah. But yeah. But sorry, just going back to like Lao Bei and like that spirit or that entity as being their ancestor, um, it actually has like a really big role in the culture in general. So for instance, like the child in the womb is believed to be protected by Lao Bei. So like the connection between like a like a person um and the ancestor starts like while they're in the womb. And there's like a lot of physical signs. This is more of like a fun fact, but there's a lot of physical signs in infancy that are also attributed to Lao Bei. So for instance, like a new a newborn's like first stool um is called ka it lao be, so ancestral stool. And like that's like a big thing. Um, an early spontaneous smile is believed that like the child is responding to the ancestress like caressing them or like playing with them. Oh, and then also like the lip movements that they make, like the child makes during feeding is also kind of yeah, are attributed to again like the ancestress like feeding the child or supporting that process of them. Um, this one I thought was really sweet. Well, at least I thought it was sweet, but the stretch marks on like the mother's abdomen during pregnancy are called a cut cut laube, so an ancestral scratch.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_05And yeah, that's just kind of a small thing, but I think small thing in the sense that like a small fact, but I think it's interesting because like you're providing a more positive connotation to an aspect of a human body that I think a lot of people feel insecure about, at least nowadays. Um yeah, and then also like the hair that a child is born with is considered like the ancestress's hair, so that's why like no sharp objects should touch the child's head in the first year, and even once they get their first haircut, they still preserve like at least some hair from like the time that they were born, because that's like again their connection to their ancestor. But yeah, despite this having such a huge like cultural, spiritual connection, um, it's actually not specific to her religion, which I thought was also pretty interesting. So both traditional um Nyam Kasi believers and Christians practice it. So there's Christians that are in the village that also have like a Jingrabai Lao Bei.
unknownOh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01So they believe in her like as a ancestor, but not as a god.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they didn't go into like I didn't go into such detail to understand like if you're Christian, like what is the extent of your belief about Lao Bei, but they still had the name. So I guess it could be one of those things where like they hold those two thoughts separately, that there is a spirit, but then also I believe in Jesus. Or it could also just be like this is like a cultural thing that we do in this part of our region, and I'm gonna keep doing that. Like I feel like there's things that we do as well that m that uh don't how do I how do I say this? Like obviously this is like a much dumbed down comparison, yeah, but like we celebrate Christmas, right? You know what I mean? Like I celebrate Christmas, but I don't I'm not particularly like religious.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean they're practicing something within their community that doesn't have to denote their religious belief, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, as I was kind of alluding to earlier, there is also like a supernatural element to this. So locals also talk about how they spend so much time in the jungles, it can be kind of lonely, right? So, like obviously singing out these names feels comforting, you feel like you're not alone. Um, also some mothers just talk about how like they kind of hum it around their house, like they'll hum their kids' names. So it's just like a very ingrained part of their culture. However, um, going back to like working in the jungles in particular, so this is a quote we believe that bad spirits that dwell in the forest cannot distinguish our tunes from each other or from animal calls. Hence, no harm comes to you when you're called by your tunes in the forest. And so they believe that there's like forest spirits that you can upset, and then if you upset them, you're gonna get in trouble. And yeah, just to reiterate to prevent that, if you like sing your name instead of just saying the name, you're kind of like confusing them. They don't particularly know if this is like a person versus an animal.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05And an example, like in the documentary I was watching, um, this man was giving is that there was a time when he was in the forest and he called his brother out by name, and then suddenly he like heard a voice saying his brother's name, but it wasn't a noise out, sorry, not noise, it wasn't like a voice that was recognizable to him and that freaked him out. Yeah, because it's like, What like why am I hearing this?
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05And so he was talking about how, like, yeah, I think that was like the forest spirits catching on to me, like to me and my brother being there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my god.
SPEAKER_05And then another example that he was also giving, um, this kind of felt I think this is more of like a like folklore versus anecdotal. Like, I don't think he himself knew the person that this happened to. Um, but he was just talking about like there's a story of how an elderly woman was in like a forest once, and she had her machete beside her, but then like a few moments later, she realized it was missing. She was like looking for it for hours and hours and couldn't come across it, and then eventually kind of felt like the forest spirit, which they named as Ron. Um, like she kind of had a feeling like I'm being pranked, and she got really upset. So then she started cursing at the forest spirit, and then she felt somebody poking her eyeballs with bamboo splints.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. Wait, what?
SPEAKER_05And then she went blind. So this isn't this specific folklore, isn't around like not using your name, but it just reinforces that same fear and the idea that there are forest spirits, and you better not upset them. Right, because they will comfort you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. She felt someone poking her, like in her eyes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then she actually went blind. And so the idea the the notion is that it was like the upset forest spirit was like, Why did you curse me out?
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_05Here's your punishment.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Never uh never speak ill in a jungle anymore. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if this is also a way for them to encourage just like respecting nature and respecting the jungle, because it can be a dangerous place, and so um yeah, it's a way to be like, you know, cautious, yeah. You're never alone in the jungle and you never know what's lurking out there, and you should respect it. And I mean, realistically, a singing melodic tune, I think, is something that would camouflage better in a jungle. Yeah. Right? Like it sounds more like birds or something, and so you probably are less likely to attract a predator versus if you're speaking in a very distinct voice that is familiar to predatory animals, yeah, as identifiable as a human, yeah, that you're more likely to be attacked. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And when I was reading about this, it it reminded me of the documentary that like you and I watched about um the unfortunate incident where like this plane crashed in the Amazonian rainforest. Yeah. And I'm gonna give like a very, very simplified version of this. But there were a few survivors, but the reason why they were able to find them is because like indigenous people worked with law enforcement. Um, but the indigenous people that were like working with them and that were kind of searching the the jungle for these children, a huge part of like the way they went about it is still respecting nature and like the jungle because their concern was that if we upset the jungle in the process of looking for this child, it's gonna only complicate our efforts more. So for instance, they were very cautious about like where they were slicing the vines or the trees to like create clearings for them to like continue forward. Um, and this isn't like I think this is like kind of like a common thing you see across all Indigenous communities, but there is like a huge deep respect for nature and realizing that like you can upset Mother Earth and you can upset nature, and so you better be careful when you're in their terrain, and like if you are working within that, that's not your home, that's like Mother Nature's home home, yeah. So I think that's kind of like a similar vibe here, too, to your point where it's like you need to respect the nature and the area that you're in, and it's not yours, even though you're benefiting from it. Yeah, yeah, and so I know we kind of were talking about like the colonialism aspect of it, and while I was researching this, the reason why this was able to persist all these years is because of where Kotong is located. So I had briefly said um about the Sora era of time, and so around that period, British settlers were kind of doing their thing, and there was accounts of how they were writing back to their families or whoever that they were reporting to that we've reached this area, it's really beautiful, but it is so rainy. There is so much rain, we can't resurrect any structures, everything is getting flooded, this whole place, like we cannot live here, like it's a whole mess and a half. Interesting, and so that's why they were never able to like successfully really penetrate this area because it was just so uninhabitable by them.
SPEAKER_00But they tried, like they tried, okay, they tried.
SPEAKER_05Um, not but like it's not the exact coordinates of the Kasi village, but like this area where the Katong and Kasi people would have been. Um, so that's how they were actually able to like continue persevering and keeping this tradition and like kind of being unaffected by colonialism in that sense. However, which I found this to be really funny, but also kind of cool, is that despite them able to like persevere from that, modern technology has obviously influenced these tunes. So now, even though the people are like living in these like remote, well, previously remote areas, they're not as remote anymore, right? People have phones, internet, and now that there's a road, there's also like a booming tourism industry. Cause like um the people that live in Katong have been also really trying to promote their village as like a place for people to come and understand their culture. Right. So in the documentary, there was an individual talking about how people hear like jingles and songs in movies and TV shows, and then that obviously then influences the tunes that they create for their kids.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05And so Hugh has said how, for people that watch Bollywood, um, he knows someone who named their child based off of the tune of Kahona Piade.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's crazy. So it's like exactly the same too, but then it's not unique. I guess it's unique in the village.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, obviously, obviously, like a little yeah, like as with any tradition, like over timely people bend rules.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, you brought a phone into the scene, I think the rules exactly.
SPEAKER_05And it's not common.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not common, right? Yeah, but it might be more common.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which I th I just thought that was interesting.
SPEAKER_01I wonder as a child if you would like that or you wouldn't like that.
SPEAKER_05But you know what I was the parallel I was thinking of is like I have a friend, right? I'm not gonna say his name. But anyways, his parents named him after a journalist.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, people name their kids. The same thing, yeah. Yeah, right. Or like I characters, yeah, celebrities, historical figures. Yeah, it is very common.
SPEAKER_05Or even like, come on, there's so many Zadens that are now gonna be born, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all these romantic books, there's gonna be kids named after characters. Oh, right, right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, Reason, you know. True, true, true. Rowan. There's there's there's people out there.
SPEAKER_00Oh Rowan is, I think, a common established name.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but I think it's also in like a recent romantic series that got really popular. I can't remember. But yeah, wow, that kind of cracked me up. And then obviously there's like the purists, right? Like in the same documentary, there was like another lady talking about how, like, yeah, I know people get influenced by like pop culture. But she like was talking about how like the original intent was for it to be unique and something that like the mom composes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because if it's meant to be like a bonding experience, like this movie is like how is this movie part of your bonding? Well, I mean, I guess if you're watching the movie, maybe you watch something you like a lot, you like it, but also maybe you watched that movie a lot when you were pregnant or something.
SPEAKER_05But also again, I I think it's like us sometimes infusing more meaning into practices that aren't common to us to make them feel special. Because, like I said, like I don't know, like people will be naming their kids after like movies, songs, books.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05So, like, why are we kind of holding them to like a higher standard of like, no, it needs to be like unique and like special? Like, they're they're people at the end of the day, true, you know. Um, but yeah, and the last thing I was gonna say, like, this is um the same lady that was kind of talking about how, you know, yeah, people are getting influence, it's not she don't love it, did talk about how that sometimes some women like do struggle to like compose a tune for whatever the reason may be, right? Like it's just not coming to you, you just don't know what to do. So then, like, typically um other women in your family then kind of help you compose it. So she was saying, like, like I my daughter-in-law, because she had a son. She's like, you know, like I would help my daughter-in-law compose that tune if she was like struggling with it. So it's not like you're like kind of ostracized and you're like, uh, loser mother, what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01Like, there is Yeah, you're not you're not punished for not having musical ability.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like they kind of support you through it. And also, like, um, it's not that like the the day they're born you come up with this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There is acknowledgement that like it might take like a week or two for you to like come up with a tune that you then But I think it's interesting, like everything we discussed today, like how our current notions of what's considered advancement or what's considered like established society or what's considered considered intellectual superiority is like it can be broken down immediately if you look at these communities who are surviving, thriving off of relatively more rudimentary means, but it's still working. And arguably they're more happier.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Like, I mean, who gave us the authority to decide what a successful civilization looks like or what an advanced civilization looks like versus what's primitive?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um they're all relative terms.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like what is a measure of that? Because we like we have measures, economic measures like GDP, but like is that more valuable than I don't know, just being content and happy? Like, not to sound really idyllic, but I don't know. I think sometimes rapid advancement isn't the best, and it doesn't benefit all individuals of all socioeconomic levels in a society.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it's at play every single day right now.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, like even with AI, right? Like there's so many communities uh uh surrounding um these huge AI centers that are now being built that are going to directly suffer negative consequences as a result of that, or even just you know, the whole thing with climate change, and we're literally going to have climate refugees and uh islands in the Pacific Ocean.
SPEAKER_05Advancement is not always advancement.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Who decides decides what is advancement and if ad advancement is progress?
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you everyone for sharing. Hopefully, we all learned something new. I definitely did.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I definitely learned something new for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much, everybody.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for joining us and catch us next time. Yeah, we'll see you later.
SPEAKER_00Closing all tabs.